Soul spoken here: The story of Johnny Pate, Part 1

This interview was recorded on a blazing hot Saturday morning in Johnny and Carolyn Pate’s lovely Las Vegas home, “The Castle” they call it because of the stone façade and too, it’s a good-sized house for just a couple. This was our second meeting, since John Smith had made the introductions via e-mail. The first time in May, Simone and I came to call on Mr. Pate. I couldn’t believe we were about to meet my most favorite record producer; the meeting had an unreal quality. Would he be nice? Would he be a cranky old fella, bitter and angry with the music industry for what it did to him (as it has done to so many who weren’t able to work the system to their benefit), would our visit be an unwanted intrusion, will he remember all the important music history he made, does he simply regard them as distant fleeting memories? My nervousness was immediately curbed as he greeted us at the door, handsome, genial and charming. Sitting on the couch in the living room of a legend isn’t a usual pastime for me so Simone and I both felt privileged and honored to have the opportunity, not to mention nervous and excited.

It was incredible to see Johnny Pate going to his albums and pulling out things to show us, things to spin on the turntable, as any collector would. All collectors know where certain records or CDs are. If they sounds are filed down at the bottom, you get on your knees and peer at the familiar spines trying to read sideways. So, it was stirring to see this ritual repeated by the creator of the music. When it came time for picture taking, I took a gorgeous shot of Simone and Mr. Pate at the piano. The pictures of Mr. Pate and I didn’t fare as well, Simone’s hands were shaking too badly and the non-flash photos are a blur of smiling faces displayed with various LP covers. As if it wasn’t enough that we got a chance to talk to Johnny Pate, we left home with a Trends single and the Brother On the Run LP as gifts and so it was in a state of shock that we drove back home to my mom’s house five minutes away.

A few months later I was able to return to tape record the following interview.

Nancy: I wanted to hear the story of when your talent first surfaced.
Johnny Pate: Oh God. Let’s see if I can remember all this stuff today. I guess the talent first surfaced when uh, my mother used to sing a lotta church songs ‘round the house when I was a little kid. And I found myself harmonizing with her, I didn’t really know what I was doing, I was just singing it so I guess that’s when I really, …the talent began to show out at that point.

Did she think it was strange that you weren’t just singing along but that you were harmonizing?
I don’t really know what she thought at that time. But that was the beginning. And then I guess several years after that, the church that we went to got a new organist and she didn’t really have a place to stay and so she lived with us for a while. And she began teaching me piano while she was living with us.

How old were you?
Oh, I might have been eight or ten. And so this started me out just as far as piano was concerned, I began learning basic piano at that point.

Did she stay with you very long?
Uh, for a few years.

[Carolyn Pate walks in, meets me and my oldest friend, Kathleen]

Can you tell us about your military career, and how you got involved in the music end.
Well I went in service I guess in the first 18 year old draft. I ended up at a training center and at that time I could play a few things by ear on piano.

What year is this?
This is 1943. I could play a couple things by ear on piano and I played them pretty well. So I ended up playing on a floorshow at one of the dances at the service club at this infantry-training center. A few of the fellas in the band that was stationed there heard me and to make a long story short I ended up in this band. They needed a tuba player and I said give me a book and a tuba, they gave me a tuba and I learned how to play it. And then they also had two dance bands but they only had one fella who played bass fiddle. And once again they had the instrument and I grabbed the bass fiddle and a book and I learned how to play bass fiddle. There were a couple guys in the band who were arrangers who could write and I watched them a little bit and I said to myself, “Oh, I can do that”, I didn’t realize what was involved at the time. But through trial and error I learned how to arrange.

Did it take very long to pick these skills up?
Um, well I was in service for three years, about three years and two months, and in that time I guess I learned how to do these things and I guess I learned how to do them pretty well.

Where were you stationed?
I started out in Camp Wheeler, Georgia, which is outside of Macon. Then from there we went to Fort Benning, Georgia. And from Fort Benning we went to Europe. I was stationed in France in a training center outside of Marseilles for a while, and then I did occupation in Salzburg Austria.

Occupation?
After the war was over, they left troops in different cities in Europe. It’s what they were calling “occupation”.

Where were you born?
I was born in Chicago Heights, a little town outside of Chicago.

And then after you were finished with your military work?
After I finished in the military I decided I was going to try to make a career of music. I came back to Chicago. But I immediately went to New York and I lived with my aunt and uncle in NY. At this time I was trying to find out as much about music as I could. See, my roots are really Jazz. I was a jazz buff; I guess I probably still am. The R&B, the Rhythm & Blues thing just happened to creep in there. [laughs] I guess for the sake of survival and trying to make money.

Were you ever at odds with yourself, R&B against Jazz?
No, I never had a problem with that. There was always money involved. And at the time I had a family, I had a wife and three kids and I had to support. When the R&B people began coming at me, they were bringing nice-sized checks; whereas the jazz scene, it wasn’t happening with them. So if it was money involved I just took the job. But I never had a problem with it.

So you didn’t start your music career in Chicago, it was in NY.
Well, not really. I went to NY to try to get involved with music and course at this time I was fresh out of the army and I was still pretty young. I was trying to find out as much as I could about jazz. While I was in NY a couple of the guys that I was in service with in the band, one fella in particular, a saxophone player called me, he said “Look, I got a gig in Atlantic city for the summer, would you be interested?” And at the time I wasn’t working so I said “Oh, yeah”. So I went to Atlantic City. And we were working a little jazz combo, we worked in a lounge; it was a lounge for a large club, the club was Club Harlem. And we just had a little four-piece combo. The band leader who was playing the show in the back offered us more money than we were making, so once again, money’s involved. So we took the job there and we ended up staying in Atlantic City for the summer. This show was the type of a show like a cotton club, Harlem-type show; they had a chorus line of girls dancing

What was the clientele like?
Oh they had big clientele.

Was it mixed?
Oh yeah, mixed clientele. This club Harlem back in the forties was really a big thing. People would go to Atlantic City. That was before gambling got really big in Atlantic City, and it was noted for their shows. Everybody would come to Atlantic City and go to Club Harlem. We left there and they took the show into the Apollo Theater in NY and we played the Apollo Theater for a week. Then they moved the show to Chicago. There was a club in Chicago, and it was the same type of club, and the show worked in Chicago. So I’m back home now. Because when I left to go to NY I left my wife and my family with my mother in Chicago. So once I got back home I just kinda stayed. Because after the job in Chicago there was really nothing else definite for this particular group or troupe, whatever you want to call it. I stayed at home because I did want to go to school, I wanted to go to conservatory, and try to hone my skills a little more.

You did that in Chicago?
Yeah, in Chicago, I went to a conservatory; I don’t think it’s in existence any more, Midwestern Conservatory Of Music. I never did finish because every time I’d start in school somebody would come up with a job and lot of times these jobs were on the road, out of town, I had to take the job.

How much time would you say you put into school?
I guess three or four semesters. Somewhere around here I’ve got some old report cards from the conservatory.

How were your grades?
Uh, not bad, I was pretty good.

When did the Johnny Pate group record on Federal?
Around I guess in the mid-fifties. I ended up working in a record store.

In Chicago?
Yeah, in Chicago. I was working in a record store and I happened to hear a recording of a guy from Canada, named Moe Kaufman and the title of the tune was “Swingin’ Shepherd” Blues. And he had it on a long-playing record. And of course it was a very long-playing cut. Back in these days radio stations wouldn’t even look at a record if it was more than three minutes. So the cut that Moe Kaufman had done on this particular record was I think 5 or 6 minutes because it was a jazz record. When I heard it I said, “Hmm, this sounds like it could be something commercial.” And at that time there was a lot going on, there was a term we use where you “cover” a record. In other words you hear a record so you’d go in and cut the same record, and maybe try to do it a little better than the person that first did it.

Would you give credit?
Oh yeah. Yeah, you always give credit to the person, because whoever wrote the record, well you couldn’t take anything from that. For a long, long time after I recorded “Swingin’ Shepherd” for Federal, so many people were going around saying “Oh, Johnny Pate wrote that” and I never, never claimed to write that. It says Moe Kaufman on the record.

That’s the record that Sam in Italy wanted me to have you autograph.
On the record it’s got, under “Swingin’ Shepherd” … Moe Kaufman” because he’s the composer. You can never take away from a composer.

We weren’t sure if you were the same Johnny Pate that’s on that record because there’s quite a bit of time span between that and your later work!
At that time I was still pretty much in the jazz world. I don’t think I’d gotten involved in doing rhythm and blues stuff at the time “Swingin’ Shepherd” was recorded. I was still pretty much on the jazz scene.

Where was that recorded?
In Chicago. But the company was based in Cincinnati, Ohio. See, Federal Records was a subsidiary of King Records and we had recorded a long-playing record on King, which was a jazz record, and the long-playing record that we had recorded had a flute lead. I’d written a bunch of stuff, I probably showed you the album.

The early one with the white college kids on the cover.
Yeah, the one with the college kids, “Jazz Goes Ivy League” that’s what they’d wanted to name it. But it was strictly a jazz album: jazz flute, vibes and guitar. Those were the leads. But the album that I did, I had written all the tunes and arranged it. But it was after that that I began to get approached by rhythm & blues companies.

Was that in Chicago?
Yeah, all of this took place in Chicago.

What was your first step towards R&B?
Well, one of the first records that I was involved with was “Monkey Time” by Major Lance.

’63?
Uh, probably, you’re probably right. You probably have better dates than I have.
There’s a fella named Carl Davis, you probably know this name if you’re into soul at all.
Carl Davis had gone to work for Okeh records, which was a subsidiary of Columbia. And his job was to strictly do Rhythm & blues, soul things. He approached me, he says, “You’re an arranger aren’t you?” and I say “Yeah”. He said, “Look, I want to start doing some things a little bit different. We’ve got this guy coming up, Major Lance”, and at the time Curtis Mayfield was going to be associate producer with Carl Davis, in other words work under him. Carl was pretty smart that way because Curtis had the talent for composing things. It was Curtis’s idea to come up with this “Monkey Time” thing. So then we sat down and we talked about it. Of course it was my idea to come up with trombones, and the brass and they kind of liked that. So then we did a bunch of other Curtis …

…Was that a unique invention at the time?
Yeah, well at the time they tell me that not too many people were doing that, I don’t really know, I just…

…It just came to you…?
Yeah.

Could it be the jazz influence?
Could be the jazz influence. I have a feeling that’s mainly what it was. Of course from that, by Curtis Mayfield working with him and Curtis had a group called The Impressions and they had a contract to ABC-Paramount. Curtis approached me and he said, “Well look, we’re with ABC-Paramount”, he says, “I like what you did over there, maybe we can do something when we get ready to record our album, or our single.” One of the first things that I did with him was a tune called “It’s alright” with the Impressions.

Did you work at the same time for ABC as well as Okeh?
Yeah, see I was independent at the time. When I first started doing this.

Were you about the same age as Curtis Mayfield?
No I was a little bit older than Curtis.

And Carl Davis?
Carl and I were I guess maybe close. I might have a few years on Carl, might be a few years older than Carl.

What made him think that you could make the transition to R&B?
Well, I don’t know, I really don’t know. He just approached me with it. He approached me and said “Well you’re an arranger, just see what you can do.” At the time there was another arranger in Chicago who was really getting all the work, Riley Hampton, you probably know that name. Well Riley Hampton was doing most of the work around Chicago as far as arranging for rhythm and blues dates. He was doing stuff for Jerry Butler, flock of other people. At the time I was copyist for him. He would right the scores and I would write parts for the individual instruments. So I think Carl wanted to try to diversify a little bit, keep everything from sounding the same, as Riley was doing it. I don’t know why he approached me but I’m glad he did.

Was that to give different textures to the different recordings on Okeh?
Probably, I would say yes.

Was there a direct move from Okeh to ABC?
Yeah, as I mentioned before Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions were under contract to ABC records and so when they got ready to record Curtis approached me for “It’s Alright”, shortly after that we did “Amen”. After these few things then ABC approached me and they offered me a job to come to work with them. And that’s when I got involved with stuff like “People Get Ready” and a flock of other things. A bunch of things you folks have been coming up with, the Kittens, and Earl Jackson and people that I forgot even existed. Of course the Marvelows I brought to the label.

Oh you did. Are they from Chicago?
The Marvelows is a very interesting story. One of the guys in the group, his mother grew up with my brother and I, we had gone to school together. I guess his mother sent him to see me. You know, she said tell him who you are, tell him who your mother is and these guys came into my kitchen, these five guys and they said we’ve got a group and they just start singing in my kitchen. And I said, oh you guys are pretty good; I signed them to the label.

I have their LP.
Oh, you do, I don’t even have their LP!

Oh, it’s very good.
You’re kidding. ABC did some reissues that I’ve got, a couple of things.

When you were making the ABC recordings would you hear the group before laying down the track?
Oh yeah, I would have to hear the group before I lay the track down. Actually, in most cases I like to hear what the group is going to do. Let me hear what you’re doing and then I can surround myself by what they’re doing.

Would the melody and lyrics be written already?
Oh yeah, most definitely, and then I build up around it. Because I figure that’s the best way that I can really work.

Who are your favorite people to work with?
Oh boy, there are so many it’s real hard to say.

Do you remember the Trends?
Yeah, sure, I remember the Trends. Let’s see if I remember which group that was, was that The Dorseys? Do you remember any of their names?

No.
That’s the only way I could remember it.

“Thanks For A Little Lovin’”, does that ring any bells? I’m gonna have to make you a tape, huh? John Smith and Kevin Schofield are talking of doing a compilation of your tracks for you.
Yeah, John [Smith] sends me e-mails asking me about all these different groups and some I remembered and some I had no idea.

John digs deep.
Yeah, I see he does.

Can you talk a little about your move from Chicago to New York, like what time frame this is?
This was around the late sixties. There was a very interesting thing that happened at ABC. ABC fired me. I was fired from ABC.

Comments:

L. R. Muhammad	jul 26 2006 3:57AM

I enjoyed reading the article about Jonny Pate. He is truly a talented arranger and musician. It was good to hear him mention the Kittens the singing group with ABC Paramount Records. Are you familiar with this group? They were very talented and Johnny Pate was instrumental in the quality sound they produced. Can you tell me more about the Kittens?

John Eslinger	nov 7 2004 1:03AM

Johnny Pate is one of the most kind, gentel, funny, REAL persons I have ever met AND he plays a real mean game of Golf! JCE

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Soul spoken here: The story of Johnny Pate, Part 1

The Uppers organization is proud to bring you this interview with an American music legend, courtesy of our globe-hopping Nancy Yahiro

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